Tax Beat: Tax Law Updates, Government Shutdown Impact and Economic Outlook

(00:01) [music] Welcome to the Cherry Bekaert Tax Beat, [music] a conversation about tax that matters. [music] Welcome to to this edition of the Cherry Bekaert Tax Beat podcast. Today we are talking with Casey Pitman, our firm's managing director for tax policy. One might think there's not been much uh to talk about since the government's been shut down for what roughly 45 days now.

(00:31) Uh but there's always something going on and Casey is here to share an update with us. So, how's it going today, Casey? >> Uh good. A potentially very busy day with the um House coming back together to vote on potentially reopening the government. So, uh big day here. >> We can only wish.

(00:53) We can only wish. Um, also joining me as always, Sarah McGregor. Um, my partner in crime. How's life treating you, Miss McGregor? >> Life is good. Uh, here in Greenville, we had a cold snap this week and I'm ready for it to get back to the upper 60s and 70s. So, >> good luck with that one. All right. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Um, anyway, and I'm joined from Richmond today as usual. All right.

(01:19) So, um, let's start at the beginning. So Casey, uh why don't you u talk a little bit about the uh one big beautiful bill act and kind of what the status and all that is right now. >> Yeah. So the uh public law 11921 which is commonly referred to as the one big beautiful bill. Um not the actual name interestingly enough uh that got stripped right before it got passed and the bill does not have a name but um public law 11921 doesn't really roll off the tongue right.

(01:49) So, uh, OB3 is what most people are calling it. Um, this law passed, it was signed into law on July 4th, uh, passed in the few days before that, both chambers after really a tumultuous couple months running up, uh, as they were putting the bill together. But ultimately, the bill, which cost $3.4 trillion total, contained $4.

(02:16) 5 trillion worth of net tax cuts. So, this package was really focused on tax. There were a couple other things um healthcare and uh food benefit related that saved some money to bring the net cost of the bill down, but tax was this was the largest bill we've ever had. Um this is in no way simplification as I feel like we're always promised with tax bills uh that we're going to get tax simplification and once again Congress has failed to deliver uh simplification.

(02:44) We've made things more complicated as we like to do. Um, and it's again there's just a ton of money here to be saved. That $4.5 trillion figure is over 10 years. That is this Congressional Budget Office scores legislations over uh legislation over a 10-year period. And so because a lot of these provisions were enacted on a permanent basis, uh the real cost of that will be much higher.

(03:10) But just in the next decade, taxpayers collectively should look to pay $4.5 trillion less than they would have if this law didn't pass. So taxpayers right now should be consulting with their adviserss, looking at the bill and saying, "Hey, what in here is helpful for me?" Um, we So we got this bill on July 4th. We are in great need of guidance.

(03:34) Um, there are a number of provisions that are pretty simple. Some that are a continuation of current policy, right? And actually the ones that cost the most are generally a continuation of current policy don't need a lot of guidance. It's sort of smooth sailing there. Some of them are a continuation of current policy with like a little bit of a boost, but some of the provisions are novel and um for those we need guidance in order to enact them.

(04:01) Many of the taxpayer favorable provisions are retroactive to the beginning of 2025. Right. Um taxpayers don't love halfway through a year you pass a tax bill and you've made things worse for them half you know after they've gone through the year thinking hey this is what my tax rate is going to be. This these are going to be the benefits for these deductions or these credits.

(04:21) So the changes that are not taxpayer favorable are usually prospective. They hit in 2026. Couple of favorable changes hit in 2026 but by and large the taxpayer favorable provisions hit in 2025. which means the next month and a half is all you have to act on those, right? And then we're going to start reporting those on forms.

(04:44) Usually filing season starts what, Sarah? Like late January. >> Uh usually late January. And we're hoping this year that uh the IRS will be able to start tax season at the same time accepting tax returns. Uh they say they will, but um you know this government shutdown might have might have delayed that for a bit. They haven't officially announced a date yet, but um hopefully they'll be able to start accepting returns.

(05:09) >> It'll it'll be about the time that nice 80 degree weather shows up again. >> Exactly. [laughter] Exactly. As soon as the weather turns nice, it'll be time to come back inside to uh to work on taxes. >> That's that's when we have to work around the clock. Yeah. >> Um yeah. So, there's a lot of guidance needed because we can presumably start filing returns in what two and a half months now. Many of our clients won't.

(05:31) Um but some simple filings can be done then. Um so looking back uh there are a number of provisions that are retroactive research and experimental expenditures um and that had uh a special sort of true up mechanism that was available. So that guidance we got a little bit of guidance there. There's still some more guidance needed.

(05:54) There are a number of individual provisions. No tax on tips, no tax on overtime. Um we've received some guidance there. tipped income guidance, but nothing on overtime other than, you know, some penalty abatements for the employers. Um, we do know that W2s and 1099s aren't changing this year.

(06:10) So, it's going to be a little wild. We we still don't have anything on Trump accounts. Um, a number of these provisions that are really already in effect that you could actually be acting on. Uh, we're sort of uh flying in the dark here. Um, so >> and most of the guidance we've seen so far is subregulatory. I think we got is it one just the tipped income Sarah like was rag a rag package >> um there there's it's a proposed set of regulations yes but there were a lot of comments received on it um we're hopeful that that will come through but since

(06:40) they postponed any required reporting >> effectively until 2026 income uh I think that's going to uh push that out but they will need to get it straight before uh employers start withholding federal income tax and get the tables um the withholding tables and everything set for compensation starting January 1.

(07:03) So, they're they're under the gun to to get that going for sure. Well, um that's a lot of work that the government needs to do. We'll talk about the IRS a bit later, but Casey, the most recent news has been doing with the government shutdown and questions on when it might open back up again.

(07:21) Give us some some uh thoughts on that. Yeah. So, just for context, it is um October 12th, I mean November 12th that we're recording this. Um so, the Senate 2 days ago just passed a compromise deal after the longest shutdown in US history. And it became the longest full shutdown around oh gosh, I don't know the 20-day mark because the previous shutdown, the previous record 35day shutdown was only a partial government shutdown.

(07:49) Um but none of the 12 appropriations bills that fund the government annually had been passed. So this was a full government shutdown for for over 40 days. And I will say um for a long time everybody was just counting on hey you we need to pass the package that the house sent. It was the house sent a clean uh continuing resolution which just essentially continues funding uh at current levels and it was through November 21st and the Senate was unable to compromise and find a deal.

(08:17) And so obviously November 21st is coming up pretty quick. Uh and that's not going to do it anymore. So senators finally after 40 41 days is when the agreement came together um decided that they would pass three um of the appropriations bills where there was generally consensus um and then do a continuing resolution through January 30th for the other nine.

(08:44) So, I got to be honest. I think that's 78 days away. 79 days, something like that. Um, so we are also just staring down the gun of another potential showdown here on those other nine bills if we can't find some agreement. Democrats stood firm for quite some time saying, "Hey, we're not going to participate in this process until you start negotiating with us.

(09:06) We are really worried about the Affordable Care Act premium tax credits." Those were part of the ARPA legislation in 2021, the COVID response. without an extension, uh, I don't know, something like 20 million Americans are going to see their health care costs increase and by an average of I want to say 75%. It varies by state, but by an average of 75%. That's obviously a lot.

(09:28) Um, I think by and large a number of Republicans are interested in finding some sort of solution. They think that that's an unacceptable outcome, but don't really want to see the credits expire. Um, in the end, much like much like every other government shutdown, the people holding out did not get what they wanted.

(09:47) They got a little bit of a compromise here. Democrats did get those reductions in force that we saw at the beginning of the shutdown. We got they got those reversed. We've got a moratorum on additional reductions in force through the January 30th date. Um, the farm bill items are in there for USDA and FDA. Um there it is guaranteed that the federal workers who are in furlow will get back pay but nothing on ACA premium tax credits other than Senate Majority Leader John Thoon promised a vote on the floor um which will be at that 60 vote threshold so

(10:23) that'll be difficult. Uh Speaker Johnson in the House has made no such assurances to Democrats. So this could be interesting to see how this goes. And again, if it does not go well, we're going to see a [clears throat] good chunk of Americans see increased health care costs for 2026, but also another potential partial government shutdown on the 30th.

(10:44) Um, there's not a lot of goodwill between the parties at the moment. So, we are going to see what comes next. But the house is back in session uh today after 54 days I believe out or like an insane amount of time that uh the house was recessed and they are supposed to vote at 7:00 p.m. which means probably at like 11:30 p.m. uh they will vote on this package and it is expected to pass.

(11:09) So hopefully when we all wake up in the morning the government will be reopened at least for 70 odd days. >> All right. And so I'll be watching C-SPAN tonight. See how it all turns out. >> Well, anyway, we'll we'll see. We'll see. I do it does seem likely that we will get it back open here shortly. Shortly, but hopefully they hopefully people will grow up and be more responsible the next time around.

(11:34) Um that's that's wishing for a lot though. All right. So uh in addition you know that what follows from all this is you know there are implications on the economy that you know anytime you shut down something as massive as our government um even for a few days much less as long as we've been that's going to have ramifications.

(11:56) So um so wrapping that in with everything else what do you what do you see with economic outlook Casey? Yeah, and we have been delving a little bit more into this um as there have been some monetary policy changes here in the last few months. Um the shutdown certainly impacted um a number of things both production of GDP and the availability of data um for key metrics such as inflation and um unemployment rate.

(12:29) So right now it's important because we're in a transition period with monetary policy. Uh I think probably everybody remembers 2021 2022 inflation started to climb and it really soared. I I it peaked around 9 10%. Like a a wild number and to combat that the Federal Open Market Committee which is the Federal Reserve's monetary making uh board they increased the interest rate from essentially zero like 0% to like 5.2%. 255 5.5%.

(12:58) It's a range, so it's not like one set number. Um, and they did that between 2022 and 2023. And we've kept rates elevated because the Federal Open Market Committee, who sets these rates, has um a dual mandate. They are trying to bring inflation down, minimize it. Inflation's healthy, but at about a 2% level.

(13:20) Um, and then they're also trying to maximize employment. And we've had really low unemployment the last several years, but a little bit high and they call it sticky inflation that has really started to come down. So, they've left rates pretty high. They had a little bit of a reduction through 2024 and then we've just been holding, but now we're seeing a worsening in the labor market conditions.

(13:43) Um, so we've begun to reduce rates. So now two Fed meetings in a row, the Federal Reserve has uh reduced their rate and and they don't actually there's a little bit of a misconception here. They don't actually set rates for, you know, say your mortgage or your car [snorts] loan or anything, but they really influence short-term lending rates.

(14:07) The rate that they set is the rate that banks charge each other when they borrow overnight. So that obviously has an impact on short-term uh other short-term products which then has a little bit less direct but some influence on long-term products including the Treasury uh which is what most the 10-year Treasury is what most of those interest rates that we see commercially are tied to.

(14:30) So we are in a period where they're reducing rates. We did very very much expect these two rate reductions that we saw and for a long time we've been thinking we've been pricing in the market's been pricing in another rate reduction in December. But at their last meeting they came out and said hey we might not do that.

(14:46) Also we're kind of flying blind here again because we have no data. Government's been closed. When the government is closed Bureau of Labor Statistics is usually not considered essential. Um and so we've we've seen a real delay there. Um so we are watching here to see what the Fed does because again that that impacts the cost cost of mortgages, cost of corporate lending, cost of you know when when money is cheap um companies and are are usually willing to spend a little bit more and people are willing to trade houses. You know, I joke about

(15:19) it sometimes. Um, I say I'm as married to my house as I am to my husband because I have a 2, you know, I have a mortgage rate from 5 years ago, and if I were to sell my house and buy the exact same house somewhere else now, I would be paying so much more for it. Um, but so as we see those rates come down, we may see other changes that ripple through the economy, like people willing to move, um, who may not have been before.

(15:43) So, >> there's some opportunities in a when interest rates are coming down. um that we talked about in our year in planning on how those uh interest rates as they fall can influence decisions about whether you invest in a or move money into a charitable lead trust or a charitable remainder trust or uh a grant or a loan to a family member.

(16:09) Uh some of that estate and gift planning uh these falling interest rates or change as they slowly come down. I don't want to say falling. That sounds like things are happening faster than they probably are. >> No, it's it's a creep down. >> Yeah, it's a it's a it's a slow inching down, but that can have an influence on people's decisions about what they're doing with estate.

(16:29) So, right now for those invested in the in the stock market, you know, the stock market has been flying high. there's a lot of appreciation in some assets and so coupled with that and a lowering interest rate, it's a time to think for a lot of individuals to be thinking about what they should do with some of their uh family wealth and uh how they might might move that in a in a u a more planned direction.

(16:56) Yeah, I mean individuals absolutely uh corporations as well, companies also the cost of borrowing is most of you know we talk about the market most companies have been using their cash reserves for a lot of their expansion rate because because it costs more to borrow now but as we see borrowing rates come down and we are able to right we have had a that taxpayer favorable change in 163J as we see more interest become deductible um That should help spur growth.

(17:28) But what we're really worried about right here is inflation. It was 3% in January. It came down to 2.4% in March. It's back up to 3.3 3%. Um, which isn't great, but not necessarily unexpected because of tariffs. Um, those are seen as inflationary in general, even though it may be transitory inflation. That's they obviously raise prices at least in the short term.

(17:53) But we've also se seen decreasing job growth and we're going to see a reduction in GDP this year. Um both just generally but also exacerbated by the shutdown. Um and and we worry about the Fed's in a really precarious position because we worry about winding up in stagflation which is where you know you have essentially you have inflation but also low growth.

(18:12) Um so that's what we want to avoid. Um, but all eyes will be on the Fed at their December meeting to see what they do and and for once the government opens for the Bureau of Labor Statistics to put out some of that data that we've been missing. We didn't get a September or October jobs report and we got a really delayed September inflation report.

(18:30) Um, and we really only got that because they needed it for social security um to to do the the you know the um increase >> the increase for 2026. So Casey, shifting back now that the uh House is back in session, the Senate is back in session at least for a few more weeks this year. Are there any bills or legislation that you're watching that uh have been introduced this year that might see some life uh and movement before the end of the year? >> Yeah.

(18:58) Well, obviously we're watching government funding, right? So, let's assume this gets through. One of the things that'll be really important is that next January 30th date for those other nine appropriations bills. We're watching how sort of the the political I would say vibe. My kids would say vibe. The vibe on Capitol Hill affects the ability to pass additional legislation.

(19:20) Um again, this was a really tenuous and drawn out fingerpointing period um for Democrats and Republicans together. So, we're watching government funding. The fate of those Obamacare premium tax credits is going to be interesting. We've got a guaranteed vote in the Senate. If you don't get a vote in the House, there may be a discharge petition.

(19:43) If you can get 218 votes, that would force Speaker Johnson's hand. And it's it's going to split the Republican caucus. So, it's a really sticky issue, but we'll see how that comes together. I am watching for sort of Q1 next year, cryptocurrency. Um, there's a lot of interest. Can they come up with a bipartisan solution because that's that's the way that this will get through.

(20:05) um cryptocurrency is going to need uh bipartisan support, but can they come up with a bipartisan solution both for market structure, but but also for taxability? Right? We're we're even though crypto assets act a lot like securities, they're taxed very differently and have very different rules at the moment. And so, can we put some definition around that? Right now, they're taxed as property.

(20:28) Um so, I'm interested to see what they come up with. One of the interesting points there is the dimminimous rule. What people don't want, what they want to avoid, Sarah, is you're going to Starbucks and you're paying with Bitcoin and do you need to calculate the gain on the $6 latte you got paying with Bitcoin, right? Um, they want to reduce that burden, but where's the line and how do we accumulate those? That that seems to be one of the fights right now about taxability.

(20:54) Is there a dimminimous exception? And if so, what are the parameters? Um, we are always looking for sort of that bipartisan tax extender bill that comes at the end of the year. By and large, that seems to be dead right now. There are a couple things that didn't wind up making it into OB3 um that would have bipartisan support, like work opportunity tax credit.

(21:16) Um, and usually we would see that in a year-end tax extender bill. Right now, the thinking on Capitol Hill seems to be that we have until the end of 2026 to fix that. that's when people are going to look at their are going to start filing those tax returns, which is kind of a bummer to go all the way through 2026 not really knowing how you're going to be taxed.

(21:38) Um, but I I don't think that there's the political capital to get it done in, you know, this Q4. Um, similarly, I think we've talked about, you know, we've got a bunch of resources out there on our website, um, related to OB3, but I'm going to say I think we talked about the gambling uh, changes, Sarah, and those were interesting.

(22:01) You know, just a a new limitation, a new additional limitation on gambling expenses. now that it's sort of seen the light of day, I think a lot of Republicans have agreed maybe that wasn't awesome and maybe we should repeal that. It it's not playing very well. Uh and so I think that's another item.

(22:19) Uh and there's bipartisan support for repealing that. And it wasn't a huge revenue raiser or anything like that. So, I think that we may see that repealed in 2026, but the further we get into 2026, the harder it's going to be to um get a bipartisan deal because we're going to be approaching the midterms. Like, we always have to remember it.

(22:39) So, in every 2 years, we essentially change control of the government. And so, obviously, the White House isn't up this time, but there are 33 senators up for election, as well as always every two years, the entire House. And so we're really looking to see some of those bipartisan things come together in Q1 or maybe Q2.

(22:59) I mean after that and the calendar on an election year is very different. There are much bigger holes because people need to go home and campaign right in their districts. Um we're always always watching section 8.99. Um, this was the revenge tax, the retalatory tax where we were going to increase the tax rate of individuals and corporations that are parented in countries that we thought had unfair tax practices, which was essentially every country that signed onto the OECD pillar 2.

(23:33) Um, and that got dropped at the last second, right before the bill came together in exchange for a deal um with the G7. And so the G7 nations of which we are one that said hey essentially the US is going to be exempt from this. They're not going to have to pay the UTPR uh and they're going to support that with OECD.

(23:54) OECD is actually meeting this week in France to discuss and a deal may come together for that. But if it does not or let's just say France really goes through with an increase in the digital services tax uh that they're proposing um that's targeting they that Republicans think is unfairly targeting American companies. Um we may see them bring this back up and the only way they could probably get that passed is another reconciliation bill which is something we also hear a little bit about every so often.

(24:23) So, um, for what it's worth, Republicans, uh, Ways and Means Chairman, uh, Jason Smith continues to collect ideas for tax provisions, both for reconciliation bill or a bipartisan bill or a tax extender bill. And we could see another reconciliation bill at some point during this, this is the 119th Congress. We used up all of our shots for FY25.

(24:46) FY25 closed. We are now in FY26. So they have another shot at revenue, another shot at expenses, and another shot at um the debt ceiling if they would like to use it this year if they can if they can get enough support. So um that is I would say in the short to medium term what we are watching.

(25:06) Um and then we we will turn to the midterms. Um again because the 120th Congress if one or both chambers switches control the next two years looks very different in terms of tax legislation or really anything uh that would come out of Washington. So we're always paying attention to that. >> All right. Well, I think we've uh kind of come to the end of uh this session.

(25:31) So let's move to some final uh remarks. So case is there anything else you would like to add that you hadn't covered so far? I mean, just sort of in dealing with the IRS, um, we continue to see, uh, some additional difficulties, Sarah. I mean, I know that you've seen them also. Um both the government shutdown certainly exacerbated the issue as about half of the IRS staff were furoughed but additionally um even now that say they're all back tomorrow.

(26:06) Um the there's been an almost 28% reduction in staff. We went from about 102 103,000 employees in January to now we're down to just about 74,000 employees at the IRS. And so so that's making it difficult to navigate. Not that I think and there are great people at the IRS who do wonderful work. Not that I think there was ever a time where people said, "I love dealing with the IRS. It's so easy and fun and simple.

(26:28) " But it's it's certainly gotten more >> more difficult to navigate with the significant reduction in capacity there. And I would say along with that um the Treasury is is moving forward with the president's uh executive order to move into electronic payments and away from paper checks. Either the Treasury issuing paper checks or receiving paper checks.

(26:58) So, I think this is going to be a real push for for taxpayers to make sure that they have an electronic uh means for making tax payments and receiving refunds uh and overpayments if if those exist. which also means we need to uh be, you know, sharper sharpen our pencils a little better and run freshen up those calculator batteries to make sure that we're not uh leaving too much money on deposit with the government because it's uh to make sure that we can get it back time >> and there's not a lot of clarity around around the actual cut off that Sarah, am

(27:37) I right? They've cut off issuance of paper checks. Well, they've slowed it down considerably. Let's let's just say they they put that on the back burner. If you were filing what the the uh Treasury has announced is if you asked for an electronic deposit of your refund, that was going to go forward even in the midst of the shutdown.

(27:58) But if you asked for a paper check, well, you're just going to have to wait till we get around to it. um and uh to move move taxpayers onto this new and but there not every every um taxpayer [clears throat] can handle right now um electronic payments uh to or from the government. So that's an issue that Treasury is going to have to solve uh moving forward.

(28:23) >> They are still taking paper checks for the moment though, right? They'll take your money however they can get it. Um technically I you know that the ABA in their letter to Treasury said we don't think you have the right to not accept >> uh any currency or any form of payment. Uh but given that then they had some other feedback for the IRS um in in their letter.

(28:47) So, uh, >> and then probably the one other thing I would mention is that, um, a week, a week ago today, a week ago today, the Supreme Court heard oral arguments on the president's authority to impose tariffs under IEEPA. And so, we've got two types of tariffs um, happening right now.

(29:07) We've got, well, three, but the two main ones. Um, section 232 tariffs, which are on like specific products, right? steel. We've heard about those auto parts, auto automobiles. Um, and those are go through investigations and and the basis for that is like, hey, this is a national security item. You know, we need to be able to produce this in the United States.

(29:28) But the ones that are uh called into question here are those uh liberation day tariffs, the reciprocal tariffs on other countries where um you know it was it was announced, it was delayed, there were changes in amounts, it was delayed again, but I I think they're mostly in effect now. Once a country cuts a trade deal, obviously they're off of that and and then we're we're working off of the tariff rate in the trade deal.

(29:53) And we have had several trade deals come together. Um not the 90 and 90 days that were promised, but there there are some some large countries where we have at least the outline of a trade deal. Uh but the rest of those tariffs are being called into question the legality or you know the the constitutionality. And um during oral arguments the the court right now is split 63.

(30:18) Six conservative justices, three liberal justices. Three of the six conservative justices had some pretty pressing questions for the government that Yes, they did. >> That expressed some skepticism about the foundation for the national emergency and and the and the you know the implementation of these tariffs.

(30:38) Um if so if they are found to be unconstitutional, it's certainly not the end of it. There are other mechanisms that the administration can use. You know, they'll rely more heavily on 232. There there are some other mechanisms, right? But it is going to be a wild ride because all the tariffs that were collected, right? Could it the the there's a number of ways the Supreme Court could rule, but if they were to mandate those be returned, I mean, they're not going to go back to consumers.

(31:06) It's going to be such an ridiculous process. It's really interesting to watch. I wonder again what the decision will be and if they do find in favor um of you know the the two plaintiffs that I wonder if and how those are going to be returned, what that will do to balance sheets, what that will do to again all these economic factors we're watching.

(31:30) Um it it is a really interesting uh case to watch and and we will we should definitely see a decision by June which is when the Supreme Court term ends. But they heard this on an exped expedited schedule, so we could also see it much quicker. Um, but I will be watching. That's going to be a really interesting outcome.

(31:50) And I do wonder what the impact will be again on on the markets, on businesses, on consumers, on on future trade deals. >> But if anything, hopefully it brings some certainty though. I mean, I hope it brings more certainty than we had, which seems to be the one thing everybody's been most frustrated about.

(32:08) Well, and it's sort of an ever it's an everchanging target, right? Like I get the goalpost is always sort of moving and um it's hard for as consumers, right, the three of us, we go to Target and something costs a little more and and we're making these small decisions, but businesses have to make these massive decisions and sourcing decisions and transfer pricing decisions and and there's a lot and and when that when everything's moving, it's it can be difficult.

(32:33) So hopefully there will be some certainty, but really interested in what that looks like. Um Sarah, did you have anything else you wanted to add? >> Uh no, that's it for me today. Well, >> I'll just, you know, I'll add like it's been very few periods in in time where I just feel like there's so many moving parts, so much uncertainties, so many whatifs.

(32:56) Uh but on the other hand, there's lots of opportunities, you know, brings lots of opportunities with that, too. All right, let's call it a day here. Uh uh thank you uh for listening in. And a quick disclaimer that we are not providing tax advice on this podcast. Please consult with your tax advisor hopefully at Cherry Bekaert with your specific tax issues or discuss information from today's podcast.

(33:17) Check out the firm's website at cbh.com for the latest guidance materials on this and other tax and business topics including a lot of the information on the uh OB3 and some of the economic uh update policy update stuff we've been doing. Um, this concludes today's podcast. Please like, share, and subscribe. Thank you, Casey.

(33:37) Thank you all our listeners for spending your time with us. We truly appreciate it. Let's call it a day and go forth in peace. [music]